Kumataiichi and Ryue Nishizawa talk about architecture in the 2000s

I feel that there are two major characteristics of architecture in the 2000s. One is that Diagram [B] has become simpler. There has been an increase in architecture with shapes that are easy to understand at a glance, such as circles. The 21st Century Museum of Contemporary Art, Kanazawa by SANAA is one example of this. The other is the active use of organic materials such as wood and bamboo.

I think you're right about the emergence of organic materials. As for diagrams, I have the impression that they developed in the 1990s and were simplified in the 2000s. As someone who has been working since then, I think what feels more like the 2000s is the fact that 3D programs have become commonplace.

Has 3D changed the way you work?

When the 3D model first came out, it felt very real. It wasn't abstract. A 3D model cannot be shaped unless all the dimensions of the three-dimensional object are quantified, so it is very concrete. On the other hand, a model can be made abstractly. Setting aside the details, you can give shape to the image and idea of the architecture you want to create.

At the architecture firm in New York where I previously worked, we were always asked how we could express every detail in 3D.

I have the impression that Westerners think of architecture as a physical object, rather than as something abstract at the level of an idea. When I was teaching at a European university, I was impressed by the fact that students would bring study models made from wood or plaster right from the start. It's very materialistic. I think that for them, architecture is not an idea, it's a physical object. Japanese models are made from paper, so they can make a lot of them. They keep breaking them and building more and more. Thinking on an abstract level may be a characteristic of Japanese architects.

A model is not an object, but merely an idea.

That's true for Japanese people. For Japanese people, architecture becomes a thing when they are on construction site, like when the roof is being raised.

Has using 3D changed the architecture itself?

The first time I felt that I had created something 3D was with the Louvre-Lens, which was completed in 2012. For example, the Rolex Learning Center, which was completed in 2010, was 2D. Kazuyo Sejima [C] may think differently, though.

Both of these are jobs for SANAA.

We used to argue a lot. We were both young and full of energy (laughs). It was a tough time.

Despite the demanding schedule, you have been working on a variety of projects on your own, apart from SANAA. For example, it has been 20 years since the Moriyama Residence was completed. What interests do you have in the future of the architecture you have designed?
　
That's because I have the impression that in recent years, there has been an increase in people, including myself, who are taking the approach of managing the places they have built themselves and enjoying the changes that occur over time.

The Moriyama Residence is a combination of a rental apartment complex and a home owned by the owner, but initially it was named the Moriyama Residence, with the idea that it would eventually become Moriyama's own home. Currently, some of the space is also rented out. Moriyama said he wanted to open a cafe in the kitchen, which I thought was a great idea. It's interesting to see how the way a place is used changes. I feel like people like Kuma-san who are involved in the management of their properties are a trend since the 2010s.

It has been 11 years since the museum opened. What do you think of the Karuizawa Senju Museum of Art?
　
I felt that this was a place that was created with a strong awareness of space, not objects. I was impressed by the feeling of walking through nature and becoming one with the surrounding forest. What were you thinking about when designing it?

At the time, I think that I and other people had a vague sense of social impasse. The Senju Hiroshi Museum of Art was built before 3/11, but in terms of awareness, I think that by that time we were already feeling the limits of an urban environment that had become too artificial, and were beginning to think about the fundamental relationship between nature and humans.

For example, what kind of things have you been thinking about since 3/11?

Although people had begun to rethink the relationship between nature and humans before the disaster, the impact of the disaster was decisive. Recently, I feel that there have been many cases where people are considering new roles for libraries, art museums, music halls, and so on. I believe that the movement to consider single-function spaces as multi-function spaces, or to rethink functional spaces as places, is the result of the disaster.

I also think that since the disaster, there has been a lot of attention being paid to "making places for people." This is also evident in activities like the "Home-for-All" project [D]. And perhaps the most significant thing that has happened since the disaster is that many architects have begun to imagine ideal human communities. Things like better community building and better urban development.